Saturday, November 17, 2007

emotional lit vs neutral lit

(this is sort of a reply to ben latini about whether online lit is too "dead-pan". ben, can you post a reply if you have enough time, either here or on your blog? this is an interesting topic, i hope this is sort of coherent).

In my brain, there are two main styles in which a person can write – one is overtly emotional, while the other is neutral (or “dead-pan”).

Here is the difference between the two styles: if an emotional writer wants to write about a sunset, they will say something like, “conn’s face was bathed in the deep, dynamically-shifting fiery glow of the life-giving, untouchable solar body, as, all the while, the northern wind caressed his skin.” but a neutral writer would say something more like, “the earth rotated so that the sun was no longer visible to conn.”

The difference is that the emotional writer continuously makes moral and qualitative judgements about what they are describing, whereas the neutral writer only expresses what actually happens, without including their own judgements.

So, when writing about the sunset, the emotional writer seems to be trying to say, “sunsets are more beautiful than other things, they bring happiness, and if you do not feel happy after seeing a sunset, then you are not normal.” the neutral writer, however, realises that there is no single “correct” opinion about sunsets, because all people have different emotional and moral responses based on their past experiences. the neutral writer, as such, seems to be saying, “the sun set, and you can find it beautiful or poignant or depressing or funny or disgusting, or whatever you want, but your response will not be the ‘correct’ response, and other people will have different responses to you which are equally valid.”

Going on from this, i see emotional writing as a sort of propaganda, because emotional writers use emotions as a way to manipulate readers into thinking in ways that are not rational and as such, do not allow people to see things “as they really exist.” like, some writers use 9/11 and the war on iraq as tropes. tropes are things which allow a writer to elicit a certain response in a reader without the reader actually processing what they have read. so, as soon as you mention the war on iraq, some people automatically feel sad or angry, for no reason at all. you could walk up to somebody and say “you caused the war on iraq, you bastard!” and they would probably feel guilty automatically. emotional writers do this, too. they might be writing something and then slip something in like, “later on, lucille was killed in the concentration camps” and people will think, “holy shit, lucille was killed by the nazis, she must have been a good person, that is so sad.” And then the reader will automatically be “on lucille’s side”, and feel empathy for lucille. that is stupid - lucille should be judged (if at all) on the things that she did during her life. but emotional writers who use tropes want to bypass this sort of rational judgement of people and things. it is like that movie “reign on me” where adam sandler played a man whose wife died in 9/11, the whole movie was propaganda, because it told the viewers, “you have to feel sad for this man, it is the only possible emotional response you can have.”

So, this means that people who write in an emotional way scare me because i know that they have an agenda beyond merely “showing the world as it is.” their agenda is to make me think that some things are “good” and some things are “bad” and that some things cause happiness and some things cause sadness for every single person in the world.

But people who write in a “dead-pan” way do not scare me. i can tell that in real life these writers must be open-minded and accepting, because these sorts of writers realise that all things are arbitrary and as such, they do not privilege one thing over another. these sorts of writers would not say, “oh my god, this restaurant is fantastic!” or “i love this book so much, i read it cover-to-cover, the author is a genius!” or “that person is such an arsehole, i hate him.” why not? because these things are not concrete. you can’t say that somebody is a “genius” unless you can explain why they are a genius and you can’t say that a restaurant is “fantastic” unless you can explain what aspects of the restaurant make it appeal to you. people who are “dead-pan” make everything concrete, which is “good” because it links everything to something specific that exists, which makes it impossible to lie. so, a “dean-pan” person would not say “this restaurant is fantastic!” but would say “this restaurant has organic vegetarian food, and i have enjoyed most of the meals on the menu”, and they would not say, “that person is an arsehole”, but would instead say “that person stood me up on a date” or something more specific. the “dead-pan” person (or writer) does not express things using exaggerative adjectives, but expresses things by using descriptions that are tangible.

Neutral writers say, “everything in the universe is made from atoms and atoms are morally and qualitatively neutral, so your brain can think a horse shit is the most beautiful thing ever if it wants to, who cares?”

30 comments:

Live@theGrouchoClub said...

Right on bro. Thanks for responding to me. I don't know if I can reply to this now because it's late and that is affecting my brain but I'll look into it and will reply soon. Also: I was definitely drunk when I made that comment and didn't even remember it until now. I have to go re-read my own comment (hope it made sense).

conn tomas o'brien said...

don't worry, i do that all the time.
in fact i am drunk right now.
i wish i was joking.

squib said...

Conn I can understand where you're coming from insofar as 'neutral' language is preferrable to 'emotional' language, mainly because the latter just looks sloppy. Unless it's first person in which case 'emotional' language can reveal a lot about the narrator

But I disagree with you at a fundamental level because no language is completely 'neutral'. Remember Switzerland? And in a way language disguised as 'neutral' can deceive us into thinking there is no world view being presented when there always is

A simple book on this subject is Roger Fowler's 'Linguistic Criticism'. One supposedly 'neutral' text that he looks at is that of Hemingway. You couldn't get more unemotional than Hemingway's writing style

And yet the transitivity, the foregrounded goal-directed activity, the male constantly modifying his environment etc etc all create a purposive, male, agent-action-goal dominant paradigm which can be read as an idealogical construct of 'the American Dream'

conn tomas o'brien said...

squib, i agree, human beings cannot be completely objective like robots. all writing has emotions and motives.

but isn't writing with the primary goal of showing "life as it is" better than writing with the primary goal of "convincing people to accept my worldview?" like cubism, that seems to be very objective, it does not try to convince people of anything. cubism is quite neutral i think. i am not sure why i am talking about cubism...

anyway, i think that the solution to your problem about nothing being "completely neutral" would be to have a warning on each novel that says, "don't trust the author, he is a flawed human being." that would make the reader question everything which is a good thing.

conn tomas o'brien said...

i meant to say "he/she is a flawed human being".

i guess that is an example of a human being trying to write in a supposedly neutral way actually supporting a male-dominant paradigm. but i am so self-conscious that i noticed. claps for me!

chloe langford said...

i don't think there is anything wrong with 'emotional' language unless the person is setting out to write that way. i think its good to write things very simple the way you see them. probably more convincingly then if you try to write in a way that is intended to be "touching" or "moving". i guess for me it comes down to how genuine i perceive the writer to be.

Live@theGrouchoClub said...

Ok: Re: the concept of emotional propaganda...don't we read in order to be manipulated? to be moved? As Tolstoy said, the aim of art is to infect the audience with the feeling that compelled him to art (paraphrasing). Art is about expressing oneself, therefore, even though as you say, "there's no right opinion about a sunset" shouldn't an author be able to express their opinion. Especially if one is writing in the first person in which case excluding emotion is particularly unrealistic. And, I don't think the emotion need be or should be explicit it can be reavealed subtly, or left ambiguous, but implied. But what is art without a core, a driving force and what is that force if not emotion? Recognizing beauty, humor etc... and everything else that makes art worthwhile is not, to me a function of the pure intellect, but how we react to what our mind and senses tell us.

Live@theGrouchoClub said...

I guess I just feel like the overwrought detachment that I see in the work of people like Tao Lin, to me is an empty gimmick. I understand depression, have it myself, but am being finally, I think treated sucessfully. I understand that detachment is a function of the way the modern world with all its technology and distractions makes us and blah blah blah etc...; however, I don't want to read a writer who doesn't see the world as a dynamic, wonderous thing. Everything is amazing if you think about it. That from little single celled organisms developed creatures who could have such a complex discussion as we are right now and that we're conversing with someone on the other side of the world. Also, as an artist, I feel the writer has an obligation to experiment with our language maximize its potential and see what it is capable of. The artist should take elements of our society and show them to us in a new context to broaden our minds or just cause us to think of/see something we wouldn't have otherwise. On second thought, I think that there is a place for every kind of art becuase it all offers us something new to think about, none of it is hurting anyone, all of it comes out of someone being passionate enough to create and all of it is the beauty of the human brain at work on display. I just get sick of Tao Lin discribing himself feeling bored and drinking coffee and listening to music with his head on his desk and having an air about him when he does so as though he thinks other people should care and want to read this about his detachment and existential pain not accompanied by any entertaining or itriguing element to reward our reading efforts. Let me say I've enjoyed some of Tao Lin's work, but I think he's started a movement that's a little disconcerting to me. Where will we be if even our artists give up on the world?

conn tomas o'brien said...

artists should not "give up on the world", but maybe they should give up on human civilisation. think about it, what is the point of a writer saying "our world is good"? all that does is it makes the human being who reads it feel justified in living their unsustainable and damaging lifestyle without thinking about it in a detached manner. people have to be detached in order to see their whole situation properly - the buddhists say that and have been saying that for 2500 years, tao lin didn't "invent" detachment.

if we think about things in a detached manner, we realise that our civilisation isn't "great". it is damaging to the environment, is unsustainable, and relies on the murder of billions of animals and the enslavement of billions of people. i don't think i am being emotional now, because i am being rational - everything i just said can be proved. i am not making a value judgement about society, i am just saying what exists.

being emotional would be to say "buying this product will make me happy so who cares?" but being rational would be to detach yourself from the constant need to feel "happy" and instead think "is buying this product going to contribute to global warming and smog pollution, and unsustainable living?" by thinking in this sort of unemotional manner, a lot of problems would be solved.

non-human animals make these sorts of unemotional judgments all the time. this is why non-human animals have not caused global warming.

Live@theGrouchoClub said...

I think a writer should be more clever than to explicitly say "our world is good." But he can show us some beauty that is to be found there, without telling us that we have to agree with it. I feel and see negativity all of the time all around me. I really appreciate when someone is able to show me that there is something worthwhile in human existence although it takes a careful eye to find it. art's primary purpose in my view is not instructional. It becomes too stilted and distracting...too formulaic. I'm not saying Tao Lin invented detachment, but I think that sometimes he exploits it as a shortcut to content or an excuse for lack of content. His hero Lorrie Moore can write about the same things he does with humor and grace...a sense of artfulness and life! Our world isn't all about consumerism and destruction and I think its self-righteous to believe so. The fact that art still exists proves theres and precedent for and presence of higher thinking. Granted, human beings are ruining the planet, but is art the thing that is going to stop that? And are people who are ignorant enough not to be conscious of these issues really going to encounter or read and and appreciate art like yours and Tao Lin's?

Live@theGrouchoClub said...

What'd you do, give up on this discussion? Where are you Conn Thomas? This has been stimulating and fun...but now...you've dissapeared!

conn tomas o'brien said...

ok ben, i am back on board, and i am glad that you have been liking the discussion.

i don't think that neutral writers necessarily say that life can't be beautiful, i think that neutral writers just say that people can find beauty in whatever they want. neutral writing can be enjoyable to read (otherwise nobody would read it), but it does not force opinions on people, is what i am getting at.

the situations and characters in lorrie moore's short stories, for instance - they are extremely "beautiful", but that beauty comes not because lorrie moore is telling us to find the situations/characters beautiful, but just because she is trying to "tell the truth". she is not trying to say, "feeling this way is bad/good". i like that. it shows a great deal of "respect" for the reader because lorrie moore is basically saying, "my readers have their own moral frameworks, and i am not any better than my readers, so why should i tell my readers how they should think and what they should believe?" that sort of thing - giving the reader the freedom to make moral judgments - is what i am getting at when i say "neutral lit".

tao lin's stories, i am interested in what you mean when you say that they lack content.

Tao Lin said...

'dead-pan' writing helps me think more concretely

when i think more concretely i am better able to act, in real life, in accordance with whatever philosophy i have

if i think, 'i want to reduce pain and suffering in the world'

i can better act in that way if i have a brain that thinks 'dead-pan' instead of the other way described in this post

because i can connect cause and effect and see what my concrete actions in the world are causing

i can say 'this restaurant makes organic food, i give them money, they can buy more from organic farmers, organic farmers can get more money, they can get larger farms, farms with pesticides on them and unsustainable farming will have less space and less money, there will be less pesticides, there will be more sustainability, therefore less humans and animals will get cancer or other things, therefore there will be less pain and suffering'

if i say, 'this restaurant is fantastic, i'm so happy, life is great i cannot think in terms of cause and effect, i cannot as easily act in accordance with a philosophy'

therefore in terms of morals if your morals are that you want to reduce pain and suffering in the world 'dead-pan' writing is 'better'

in terms of fiction where most people would assume the author is writing from a position with no rhetoric, of not wanting to tell you what to do in concrete reality, you would need to define a context and a goal for each work for each person before you could talk about what is 'better' and make sense

live at the groucho club, what have you read by me? i copied lorrie moore in BED, BED is like lorrie moore

also, a lot of people used 'emotional' language or language that doesn't refer to specific things in concrete reality in this discussion

Tao Lin said...

"I just get sick of Tao Lin discribing himself feeling bored and drinking coffee and listening to music with his head on his desk and having an air about him when he does so as though he thinks other people should care and want to read this about his detachment and existential pain not accompanied by any entertaining or itriguing element to reward our reading efforts. Let me say I've enjoyed some of Tao Lin's work, but I think he's started a movement that's a little disconcerting to me. Where will we be if even our artists give up on the world?"

i haven't given up on the world

i think you are not distinguishing between fiction and reality

also i think you are not processing sarcasm or irony sometimes in my writing

there are two 'things' in the universe, the physical and the metaphysical

'thoughts' or 'writing' is metaphysical, you can't touch it

it has different 'laws' than the physical universe

the physical universe has laws of cause and effect, for example you do something, you spend money somewhere, that money goes elsewhere, an animal gets its head cut off or something, etc.

yes, i feel tired right now, i've explained all this better in other places, if you want to learn about it just read all my interviews

also everyone thinks different things of funny, if someone else thinks something is funny that i do not think is funny i understand that, everyone is different

when you typed that lorrie moore writes about the same things that i do but she uses humor i felt that you do not understand that everything is different, you do not understand that a person could actually think that my writing is funny

that is a kind of thinking that could lead to thinking that you are 'right' and other people are 'wrong' in terms of art

which is a kind of thinking that could lead to more pain and suffering and in its extreme killing a lot of people

and that is probably 'giving up on life' since it actually stops people from living

stop hating me, there is no good or bad in art

Tao Lin said...

i think conn's post makes me understand what i'm talking about more than what i typed, just read his post again

Anonymous said...

dead-pan is simply another way of viewing the world. dead-pan is another concept and to say that it somehow approaches or touches or reveals "things as they are" isn't accurate. words are not and never can be concrete things. they can only point to a concrete thing. i think the problem here is that people keep saying things like "life as it is." that's just pretentious; i know, i think it all the time. also, the post above creates an inherent hierarchy, a duality, which says that writing about "life as it is" is somehow "better" than "emotional" writing. really, all dead-pan is is the flip side of a human conceptualization of reality as emotional. it's not right or better than so-called "emotional" writing. it might be preferable to some. like me.

so, i said all that. and I still like all the writers associated with deadpan. Tao, Noah to some extent, i can't think of others.

but also let me say, what deadpan is isn't so different from these guys, which somebody somewhere already sort of pointed out:
Chekhov: "when you [...] want to touch the reader's heart, try to be cold" and "the artist should be, not the judge of his characters and their conversations, but only an unbiased witness."
Hemingway's iceberg idea, which is just about getting all the concrete physicality of a story on the page.
Rick Barthelme: "I came to think that character was a richer kind of language than language itself. I became more interested in representation than fantasy. I grew fond of the mundane because of the way it spoke of us all."

anyway, it's been around for a long time so it's not as though deadpan can somehow be called invalid or even that it needs championed now. it's just be re-messed around with in fun and interesting and sometimes profound and sometimes superficial ways - i'm not being very deadpan when i say all that. i still think it's true.

Anonymous said...

Holding up Tao as an example of perfect, robotic calm is strange to me, as his best writing has this lyrical emotional purity, a passionate intensity not unlike e.e. cummings.

Tao, to me, is an incredibly emotional writer--all those lines about holding "your face in my face like a hand," and being hopelessly alienated--some might even call Tao's approach "emo". In fact, I think Tao has even called himself emo from time to time.

What distinguishes Tao's writing isn't a lack of emotion, but a lack of pre-digested cultural references. He tries to get at the emotions without smothering them in shopworn literary cliches. Perhaps you could call that "deadpan" but you certainly can't call it "unemotional" or "passionless".

traxus4420 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
traxus4420 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

i can say 'this restaurant makes organic food, i give them money, they can buy more from organic farmers, organic farmers can get more money, they can get larger farms, farms with pesticides on them and unsustainable farming will have less space and less money, there will be less pesticides, there will be more sustainability, therefore less humans and animals will get cancer or other things, therefore there will be less pain and suffering'

yes, but warhol became famous from exploiting obsessions in pop culture too, and his art is crap. state the obvious. ride on trends in the tone of a robot. there is talk of depression but i feel no depression. hamsters are cute. exploit every cute thing ever. baby alligators are cute. that's funny. i'm laughing on the inside yet i'm depressed. i'm confused.

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