"I had this notion that there would end up being some "Internet" school of poetry, though not called that. I don't know what I thought it would be called. Maybe we should get together and decide what that is going to be called before its too late. I don't think that's too ballsy. I really don't."
This is what I can see as what brings the writers in the "Internet" school together (and I don't want to sound like an arsehole pretentious English student here, but won't be able to help it):
- a belief that all abstract words and concepts are basically meaningless
- a belief that all poetry must be completely personal and connected to the author, and must express things that are "embarrassing", or reveal vulnerabilities about the poet
- a tendency towards simple, easily-accessible language
- a tendency to question anything that is "self-evidently true"
- using nonsense and humour to destroy the seriousness of what is being explored
The problem is that, by trying to define the "Internet" school, a person would have to put limits on what is possible, would destroy the inclusivity of the "movement", and also destroy (through analysis) the fun and "aliveness" of what exists.
But here is what I also think: something exists, something that is very different to any other fiction and poetry I have ever read before. So I think that I agree with Mazie that it probably isn't too ballsy to try to come up with a name or something, because then more people will pay attention and what does exist will gain more publicity, which means more hits on blogs, and ultimately more books read (if that stage is ever reached).
24 comments:
but naming it is also some of these people might feel uncomfortable with, due to feeling uncomfortable with abstractions or nonsarcastic generalizations, so it might be something that just won't happen because people like this don't feel motivated enough to do something like this
for me i think i might feel 'interested' in naming something in order to get more attention from journalists at first but then the discomfort of generalizing would become more than the 'fun' or whatever of getting more attention from journalists
i hope i make a little sense
for example i would get a lot more attention if i worked hard on getting published by a large corporation but i feel it is more 'fun' and 'sustainable' (in terms of feeling 'okay' about doing it) to try to sell a lot of copies while being published by an independent publisher
my comment wasn't against your post by the way, i enjoyed reading your thoughts about this in your post
i added some things i thought, some of which 'overlapped' with your things i think, in no way was i typing 'against' your post
I agree with you, Tao.
I suppose that most of the time, when people generalise and label groups, they do so as as a way to "put down" people.
The words "impressionism", "cubism" and "K-mart realism" were all invented as a way to negatively generalise the output of certain groups of artists.
But, then, at the same time, the impressionists, cubists, and K-Mart realists all used the labels to their advantage, as a way to get more coverage and become more influential.
So I don't know what to think about labelling "artistic movements". I suppose that I just think it is funny and interesting, not "good" or "bad". Just interesting.
Also I know that you weren't trying to "go against" my post, don't worry Tao.
When I said that I thought Tao and I should get together and name the "Internet" movement, it was a somewhat flippant, somewhat serious, remark meant to draw attention to something that made me feel both excited and terrified at the same time.
I dropped out of the Internet publishing scene for a while do to a kind of terrifying "cultness" that seemed to be developing, but dropped back in because I felt like it might be leaving me behind. But at the same time, having thoughts that perhaps I wasn't good enough to be "in" the movement at all.
I was terrified of being identified with it and terrified of not being involved with it at the same time.
I have used 5 or 6 pen names over the course of the last 5 years because I would start to feel like I was just being published because I was associated with the other writers that Tao mentioned in his questions.
You are right, there is this group of writers who feel a kind of despair over the world and a kind of hopelessness that has been surrounded by their writing with sarcasm and humor and embarassment and a feeling that anything and everything is relevant and acceptable to write about.
I think the Internet allows us this feeling of freedom mainly because it is cheap to publish. There isn't the worry that it is costing 7,000 dollars to put out a magazine that we have to make money back on so we won't go out of business.
We have no "subscribers" to speak of that don't come and go of their own free will depending on how they like or don't like what we have written.
In the end, I think that Tao is right in saying that we are mostly all 'unmotivated' to name the 'movement' unless we do so out of sarcasm.
When I think about it in a serious, literary way, it makes me feel inspired that I might have some sort of 'influence' in a naming of a movement I was included in, but at the same time I feel terribly insecure about what 'influence' I could possible contribute.
Thanks Mazie, would I be able to put that comment on the front page of my blog?
i didn't know you had 5-6 pen names
you should email me aboout them
i like this discussion, i feel like this discussion itsellf ... the computer i'm on is a piece of shit, i will type mroe thoughts later and link
i like this discussion, i feel like this discussion itsellf ... the computer i'm on is a piece of shit, i will type mroe thoughts later and link
Another attribute, maybe, of the "Internet school" is that the style is easily emulated. The things that Conn lists all help make it this way, I think, and also just the fact that most of the writing is on the Internet and is accessible to many people who might not have found it otherwise. Naming it will probably make it a more desirable thing to emulate. That it will become something that is emulated is a neutral thing, in my opinion.
Conn, I'm wondering what you meant when you typed these words in your original post: "the inclusivity of the "'movement'"? Mazie's comment described a "terrifying cultness"...seeing both these descriptions about maybe the same thing just makes me curious.
I liked reading this post. Thanks, Conn.
When I said that by trying to define the movement, it would "destroy the inclusivity" of what exists, here is what I mean:
- If the movement were to be defined, then it would become like an exclusive club. You would either be "in", or you would be "out". You would be expected to follow certain rules, or else you would not be accepted as a "part of the movement".
- At the moment, because no "movement" has been defined, people can just do whatever they want. There are no "set-in-stone" rules for style (or content), which means that everything is accepted. If something is interesting, then it is accepted. There are no expectations. This is what I mean by "inclusivity".
Thanks for typing more about what you meant.
I've been thinking about a sort of "anthology" of internet writers rather than a name or definition. It would be fun to read, I think, but also could be exclusive.
Yes. You can use it. Just be sure and change my "do" to "due".
less a movement than a collection of writers who are getting ass-fucked and feel alienated in the world
The first internet poet was Li Po
The birds have flown away
A lonely cloud floats leisurely by.
We never tire of looking at each other -
The mountain and I.
i think there's a "sub-movement" movement of comment sections on blogs and other places. the comment sections are part of the "internet" writing, and sometimes the comments are a lot like the writing. sometimes they're interesting in the same way. i think the comments section for "my eventual bloodless coup" is like this.
colin, in one hundred years, this comment i am writing right now will be analysed in first year university english courses. in terms of brevity and sheer clarity of expression, this comment will be compared to kafka's "metamorphosis". hehe.
i agree with you though. being able to write comments to "authors" and other readers makes me feel more excited to read. (i am the sort of person who likes to write notes in library books).
so maybe "comment section poetry" as a name would work. after all, it's not about the author, or the piece, but the graffiti of the readers, the underlining of the verse, the notes on the margins made public. it's only prerequisite is participation.
So what's really great to me about the fact that yes, there is an "internet" school of poetry/fiction/nonfiction/whathaveyou is that there is not just one of these schools there are little bubbles of people, little clusters of people, no longer limited by geography, that are influencing each other, pushing and pulling off of each other's work and that's awesome.
Just using this little capsule of writers as an example: I'm in New York, as are a few other writers here, but I check blogs of writers in Seattle, Australia, England, Georgia, and Philly and they all have an influence on me.
So yes, there is an "internet school of writers" and there are hundreds of other "internet schools of writers."
"which means more hits on blogs, and ultimately more books read"
I think the beauty of having an "internet school" is that there is no pressure to read paper books. There are several reasons why poetry on the internet has boomed:
1. It is far easier to get "published" on the internet. Anyone can sign up for a blogspot account.
2. Commenting is revolutionizing the way that literary communities form. Back in the day when there were only paper books, if one read a book by a poet one liked, one had no way of communicating with that poet, except in the Langston Hughes-ion sense: "hear you, hear me---we two---you, me, talk on this page." Now, we get to talk back and forth freely to share ideas and discuss and even argue. Authors are directly connected with their fans and critics.
3. Building communities of like writers is easier. Like commenting, links are changing the way we find poetry. For instance, say I like Tao Lin's poetry. I go to his blog, read his stuff, and find a whole list of poets that Tao Lin likes. I click on those poets, and lo and behold, they've linked to Tao Lin too, as well as other poets. We build communities by the frequency of our commenting and the links, or mutual linkage, of poetry blogs. It's far easier to find poetry that one likes on the internet because of this. With a book of poetry, I read the poems, and then I have to use other resources--a librarian, a book of literary criticism, etc.--to find poets like what I just read. That said, an advantage to internet poetry is that it's making poetry reading easier in the sense that it is easier to find poetry we like just by following a chain of links.
4. A "poetry reader" becomes less restrictive on the internet. This is a lazy era. People don't want to go to a bookstore, browse through hundreds of books of poetry, and then buy a book that they aren't even sure is worth the cost. On the internet, our laziness and short attention span don't matter; we can access a poet's blog, skim it for a minute or two, and if we don't like, it, we move on to the next with just a click. Internet users are able to read hundreds more poems in the same amount of time without spending any money (if you're excluding the cost of electricity).
In light of all these factors, I think it would be more accurate to say that there is a definite boom in poetry on the internet, and thus there are schools of poetry forming on the internet. There is definitely a “school” of poets who do the things you described, but like Lacey said, there are hundreds of other “schools”. Whether or not we choose to define them is another story. I think that the internet has made poetry evolve much more quickly; terms and definitions and names will become obsolete quicker.
i wonder how people in the past have felt about "naming movements", etc.
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